Back to the topic please.....
Not so fast. Again, you are the one who raised the issue saying "Personally and unapologetically I am an Arian Christian". And now you want to evade what you said? Try defending your statements instead of dodging them.
jonathan dough
JoinedPosts by jonathan dough
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Another Trinity Thread
by AwSnap incan you clarify something for me please?
the jw's teach that most (to them, that means all) religions teach the trinity as being that god almighty, jesus, and the holy spirit are literally one, meaning the exact same 'person', none higher than the other, inseparable, the exact same thing.
they mainly use catholics and baptists, in my experience.
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jonathan dough
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52
Another Trinity Thread
by AwSnap incan you clarify something for me please?
the jw's teach that most (to them, that means all) religions teach the trinity as being that god almighty, jesus, and the holy spirit are literally one, meaning the exact same 'person', none higher than the other, inseparable, the exact same thing.
they mainly use catholics and baptists, in my experience.
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jonathan dough
Is there any verse that says that Jesus was created ?
Nothing valid.
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What is the scriptural basis for the claim that we pay for our own sins with our death?
by isaacaustin inthe wt makes the claim that jesus died for adam's sin, and thus covered adamic sin.
we carry our sins with us, and they are held in abeyance so to speak, until.
a) we die.
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jonathan dough
My question still stands...:(
Also, is there a basis for the RCC belief that upon our death there is an immediate judgment ?
I suspect all of your questions can be answered in the Catholic Encyclopedia if they have it in your town. Quite comprehensive and deep in parts.
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Another Trinity Thread
by AwSnap incan you clarify something for me please?
the jw's teach that most (to them, that means all) religions teach the trinity as being that god almighty, jesus, and the holy spirit are literally one, meaning the exact same 'person', none higher than the other, inseparable, the exact same thing.
they mainly use catholics and baptists, in my experience.
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jonathan dough
Personally and unapologetically I am an Arian Christian
Many would argue that this is a contradiction in terms, that there is no such thing. One cannot be Aryan and Christian in the traditional contemporary sense. Most Christian denominations believe this. Fourth century Arian subordinationism was the specific heresy condemned by the church from at least the 4th century to this day. It is the exact same heresy taught by the JWs and contrary to Russel's claim to fame, he never coined the idea. And because you espouse these heretical ideas you really are still a JW at heart with an agenda. You should be more up front about your motives before you lure the innocent and unknowing into your trap.
Most Jehovah's Witnesses are unaware that their conception of Christ is an adaptation and resurrection of 4th century Arian Subordinationism and theories propounded by earlier Ebionite heretics (Catholic Encyclopedia, 919). In 318, Arius, a priest of Baucalis, propounded the doctrine that Christ is not fully divine (Oxford, 1209; Encyclopedia of Religion, 54). “Arius asserted that the Son was a perfect creature, at most a kind of demigod subordinated to the Father” (Encyclopedia of Religion, 20).
The Father alone, Arius argued, … is ungenerate, source without source, self-existent. Therefore the Father alone is truly eternal…. (Catholic Encyclopedia, 297)
“Jesus must be a creature, albeit one who was exalted and achieved union with God. … Arius insisted ‘there was when he was not.’ Arius was simply fulfilling the Stoic-shaped logic of trinitarian reflection prior to Origen, for he assumed that the expressed word of God (the Son) was inferior to the inherent reason of God (the Father). (Oxford, 1209)
Subordinationism suggests “… that the Father is somehow prior to the Son and the Spirit. … It was this tendency, pursued by Arius and others, which the Nicaene and Constantinopolitan creeds set out to avoid. (Oxford, 1211)
“Arius conceded that Christ was divine; but only in a translated figurative sense of the term. In other words, He is not literally divine at all. He is the most exalted of God’s creatures, authorized by God to be His agent in the work of creation, and adopted as His Son. The Word, then, was specifically different from the Father. He is a secondary deity, subordinate in nature to, not the equal of the Father …. From Arius’ viewpoint, Christ’s coming signifies nothing more noteworthy than the arrival of another creature, the decent of a demiurge into flesh” (Catholic Encyclopedia, 919).
Semi-Arianism taught that Jesus Christ is a god subordinate to the Father, which is precisely what the Jehovah's Witnesses teach as reflected in their translation of John 1:1, “And the Word was a god” (NWT), not the “God” of mainstream Christianity.
With minor modifications, the similarities between Arianism and the Jehovah's Witnesses’ theory on the nature of Christ are striking. Their conception of Christ is not a unique revelation by the society’s founder Charles Taze Russell but reaches back 1,600 years to the first centuries. The Jehovah's Witnesses teach:
Jesus, (was) no more and no less than a perfect human. (Should You Believe, Chapter 6)
Jesus was a created spirit being …. Having been created by God, Jesus is in a secondary position in time, power, and knowledge. (ibid.)
(God) created the prehuman Jesus directly. Thus, Jesus had a beginning and could never be coequal with God in power and eternity. (ibid.)
Not only is Almighty God, Jehovah, a personality separate from Jesus but He is at all times his superior. Jesus is always presented as separate and lesser, …. (Should You Believe, Chapter 8).
In every period of his existence, whether in heaven or on earth, his speech and conduct reflect subordination to God. God is always the superior, Jesus the lesser one who was created by God. (Should You Believe, Chapter 7)
This, of course, is utter nonsense.
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What is the scriptural basis for the claim that we pay for our own sins with our death?
by isaacaustin inthe wt makes the claim that jesus died for adam's sin, and thus covered adamic sin.
we carry our sins with us, and they are held in abeyance so to speak, until.
a) we die.
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jonathan dough
I mispoke when I wrote the first sentence of the last paragraph, ie., "Since we are all judged for evil committed," which should actually read, "since we are all judged for our conduct in this life" because true believers who have been forgiven are not condemned in the judgment but passed over.
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Another Trinity Thread
by AwSnap incan you clarify something for me please?
the jw's teach that most (to them, that means all) religions teach the trinity as being that god almighty, jesus, and the holy spirit are literally one, meaning the exact same 'person', none higher than the other, inseparable, the exact same thing.
they mainly use catholics and baptists, in my experience.
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jonathan dough
This is a very good point, ATJ. One of the first rules in a debate is to never allow an opponent to define your position. This is one of the reasons why I do not argue the Trinity with JWs, but instead go for directly after the authority of the Governing Body. Once the GB's authority has been undermined, then I will begin to dismantle WT doctrine in a systematic manner.
I agree completely, and one of the best ways I have found to undermine their authority is to undermine the notion of a literal 144,000 anointed, because there is no such thing. Get rid of that and they have nothing and lack all validity.
http://144000.110mb.com/144000/index.html
JD II
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24
What is the scriptural basis for the claim that we pay for our own sins with our death?
by isaacaustin inthe wt makes the claim that jesus died for adam's sin, and thus covered adamic sin.
we carry our sins with us, and they are held in abeyance so to speak, until.
a) we die.
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jonathan dough
I know it is long but it answers some of your questions on this matter. Skip if you are not interested.
http://www.144000.110mb.com/144000/i-4.html#V
As difficult as it might be to wrap one’s mind around, the Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that resurrected mankind, roughly 20 billion, are judged based on their deeds or conduct during the thousand year reign, not this life today. For all practical purposes they are starting all over again. They reason that because man is supposedly acquitted of sin at death and that he paid for his sin with the wages of death he cannot be put on judgment for evil deeds committed in this life, only the next life during the thousand year reign. He will be judged based on his obedience to future millennial Law scrolls, divine instruction or laws and regulations (the Watchtower magazine, etc.?) which are intended to educate or enlighten him to perfection.
Both those who formerly did good things and those who formerly practiced bad things will be “judged individually according to their deeds.“ What deeds? If we were to take the view that people were going to be condemned on the basis of deeds in their past life, that would be inconsistent with Romans 6:7: “He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.” It would also be unreasonable to resurrect people simply for them to be destroyed. So, at John 5:28, 29a, Jesus was pointing ahead to the resurrection; then, in the remainder of verse 29, he was expressing the outcome after they had been uplifted to human perfection and been put on judgment. (Reasoning, 337)
Time of the earthly resurrection. We note that this judgment is placed in the Bible in the account of events occurring during Christ's Thousand Year Reign with his associate kings and priests. These, the apostle Paul said, "will judge the world." (1Co 6:2) "The great and the small," persons from all walks of life, will be there to be judged impartially. They are "judged out of those things written in the scrolls" that will be opened then. This could not mean a record of their past lives nor a set of rules that judges them on the basis of their past lives. For since "the wages sin pays is death," these by their death have received the wages of their sin in the past. (Ro 6:7, 23) (Insight p. 788)
The contradictions between the JWs' rendering of Romans 6:7 and Romans 6:23 should have been self-evident to them. The way the Jehovah’s Witnesses use these verses they are mutually exclusive. If one is acquitted of sin he is declared not guilty and avoids punishment. As such he would not then be punished with death, the wages of sin. Furthermore, it is curious why they apply Romans 6:7 (“for he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin”) to the resurrected unrighteous when the entire paragraph and the next is directed to only the so-called 144,000 who alone are supposedly baptized into Christ’s death (Rom. 6:1-11).
That aside, the Greek word dikaioo means ‘acquittal’ (NWT) or ‘absolved’ (NAB) ‘justified’ (Green’s Literal), or primarily ‘deemed to be right’ (Vine’s, 69). But if you look closely at its use in Romans 6:7 you will notice that the Jehovah’s Witnesses have plucked it out of context and fail to understand the unambiguous meaning of Paul’s discourse. He was referring to a spiritual death to sin for the Christian believer, not the physical, mortal death of all men.
1 Consequently, what shall we say? Shall we continue in sin, that undeserved kindness may abound? 2 Never may that happen! Seeing that we died with reference to sin, how shall we keep on living any longer in it? 3 Or do YOU not know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we were buried with him through our baptism into his death, in order that, just as Christ was raised up from the dead through the glory of the Father, we also should likewise walk in a newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall certainly also be [united with him in the likeness] of his resurrection; 6 because we know that our old personality was impaled with [him], that our sinful body might be made inactive, that we should no longer go on being slaves to sin. 7 For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin.
8 Moreover, if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. 9 For we know that Christ, now that he has been raised up from the dead, dies no more; death is master over him no more. 10 For [the death] that he died, he died with reference to sin once for all time; but [the life] that he lives, he lives with reference to God. 11 Likewise also YOU: reckon yourselves to be dead indeed with reference to sin but living with reference to God by Christ Jesus.
12 Therefore do not let sin continue to rule as king in YOUR mortal bodies that YOU should obey their desires. 13 Neither go on presenting YOUR members to sin as weapons of unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, also YOUR members to God as weapons of righteousness. 14 For sin must not be master over YOU, seeing that YOU are not under law but under undeserved kindness. (Rom. 6:1-14 NWT)
Paul is defending “the gospel against the charge that it promotes moral laxity” (NAB note 6, 1-11). He refers to having ‘died to sin,’ and that those baptized were baptized into Christ’s death and buried with him. The symbolic death leads to life with Christ. And true believers must think of themselves as being dead to sin. Nothing in those verses can be interpreted to imply a physical death, or that all evil people are acquitted of their sins at death because Paul made it very clear that “…it is reserved for men to die once for all time and after this a judgment” (Heb. 9:27 NWT). The Jehovah’s Witnesses’ misinterpretation would actually encourage moral laxity.
Furthermore, Christ died only once for sin and will never again return to die for forgiveness of sin so the resurrected sinful billions could never obtain the benefit of his sacrifice which he made under the so-called expired New Covenant (Romans 6:10). Christ died once (Heb. 9:27,28).
And Hebrews 6:23 cannot mean that all men are punished with death for their sins. This too is taken out of context because Jesus said “… whoever hears my word and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life and will not come to condemnation but has passed from death to life” (John 5:24). The wages of sin, death, is not everyone’s punishment or reward.
21 What, then, was the fruit that YOU used to have at that time? Things of which YOU are now ashamed. For the end of those things is death. 22 However, now, because YOU were set free from sin but became slaves to God, YOU are having YOUR fruit in the way of holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom. 6:21-23 NWT)
The Christian path leads to eternal life even though one dies physically, with one limited exception at 1 Corinthians 15:51,52. For others there is spiritual death followed by physical death and judgment; nothing here even remotely suggests that they will not be judged on judgment day for deeds committed in this life.
Fourth, Paul stated that man is judged on the basis of deeds committed while in the present physical body, not the resurrected body of the next age.
We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight ... we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil. (2 Cor 5:6-10, NAB)
Since we are all judged for evil committed, Paul was speaking not only to the 144,000 as the Jehovah's Witnesses routinely claim, but to all men (the implications of this are enourmous because first century Christians were therefore comprised not only of the 144,000 and the New Testament was not directed in most instances to only the 144,000). Of course, the Jehovah's Witnesses teach that since Paul's words here refer only to the anointed, it still allows for resurrected man to be judged for deeds committed in the next physical body. But if that is the case, not only are some of the 144,000 committing evil deeds, the 144,000 anointed are judged like the rest of us. And since some of the 144,000 are evil-doers because they don't live up to their own high ethical standards they can't be part of the 144,000. Therefore it is impossible to use that number as a benchmark for counting down to the end times, for identifying who of the anointed remain on earth. No one knows who they are until they have been sifted through the judgment process.
JD II
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Another Trinity Thread
by AwSnap incan you clarify something for me please?
the jw's teach that most (to them, that means all) religions teach the trinity as being that god almighty, jesus, and the holy spirit are literally one, meaning the exact same 'person', none higher than the other, inseparable, the exact same thing.
they mainly use catholics and baptists, in my experience.
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jonathan dough
Here are some of the snippets I found from the WT, in order by year on the CD.....
You're not fooling anyone, Ynot. You pretend to criticize the JWs then go out of your way to post their version of the Trinity doctrine. You're still a JW down to the core and you know it. Try posting contrary versions, not the JWs' propaganda. You keep lambasting JW literature and then you propagate it. We see right through you.
JD II
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52
Another Trinity Thread
by AwSnap incan you clarify something for me please?
the jw's teach that most (to them, that means all) religions teach the trinity as being that god almighty, jesus, and the holy spirit are literally one, meaning the exact same 'person', none higher than the other, inseparable, the exact same thing.
they mainly use catholics and baptists, in my experience.
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jonathan dough
I just want to be able to show that their portrayal of what "christendom's relgions" teach is not accurate. I feel like it's what I've learned, but I don't have any backup evidence. Hence, the starting of a redundant thread to sqeaze information out or YOUR brains.
I recently finished a lengthy paper (with ample citations) on the Trinity doctrine and how the JWs misrepresent the doctrine of the Trinity. Most Christians do believe in the Trinity, but most don't really understand it. For instance, they don't understand the nature of the hypostatic union, that Jesus was/is God-man, and that the "man," the creature Jesus, is not considered God Almighty and therefore He could pray to His Father without contradiction. They do not understand that "Person" does not mean a human like you or I, or that the doctrine teaches the 3 persons are not separate individuals. They do not understand that God is considered One in one sense, and 3 in a completey different sense, hence no contradiction. And they most certainly don't understand the difference between immanent and economic Trinity which is an essential starting point to any Trinity discussion. The nature of the God-man Jesus cannot be separated from the Trinity doctrine, which the JWs will try to do. At the core is the issue of whether Jesus was, and is, God, which he was and is, and there is an astounding amount of proof texts that establish this as fact.
At the least, read the first page of this material and it will go a long way to clarifying the issues. Follow these links.
1) Summary
2) Immanent Trinity versus economic Trinity; God in Himself and God for us.
6) Further articulation of the Hypostatic Union - the nature of the God-man Jesus.
20) Proof texts that Jesus was, and is, God.
JD II
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Number of Christians in First Century
by garlic81 indo you know if it is stated in any wt publication approximately how many christians they thought were alive in the first century from 33ce onward who had the heavenly calling?.
i found one web-site http://www.mb-soft.com/believe/txx/numberch.htm that estimates the number to be 500,000. does that seem right?
if so the 144,000 number would've been far exceeded back then.
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jonathan dough
Why does 144k need to be literael as WTS teaches?
It is literal… but who it consists of (i.e., includes them) is a complete LIE! They teach that such group coming "from among the sons of Abraham" is symbolic… and it is not. It is fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham: in order to secure that promise, the Most Holy One of Israel made SURE… that Abraham's seed… is "sealed." That 144,000 "slots" in the rulership with Christ are GUARANTEED to Abraham's seed… as represented by such number and "sealing". Revelation 7:3
Wrong.